Our Separate Ways: Black and White Women and the Struggle for Professional Identity

Stella M. Nkomo: Well, I am an African-American woman who lives in the southern part of the world now, South Africa. I am a professor in human resource management. Currently I am affiliated with the University of Pretoria in South Africa.

I think what's unique about me, I have about 40 years of academic experience, half in the U.S. and exactly half in South Africa. I'm a grandmother and very happy about that.

Rachel Salaman: That's great, and what about you, Ella?

Ella Bell Smith: I'm into my 21st year at the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth. My area is organizational behavior, and I've probably been in the academic world for about 36 years, the last time I counted. Been at this a long time, and – ha – still there is work to do!

Rachel Salaman: Yes, which we will discuss, but just for the purposes of our conversation, how do you like to be identified?

Ella Bell Smith: Oh, I'm an African-American woman, raised in the South Bronx, in New York City. Currently living in Charlotte in North Carolina, so I'm a transplanted northern girl in the United States, but I identify primarily as African-American and straight, yep.

Rachel Salaman: OK, thank you both. So as a background to our discussion, could you explain, Ella, how gender and race relate and intersect in your area of study?

Ella Bell Smith: That's a very interesting question. I remember when I first started in graduate school and wanted to do something on African-American women, and everybody told me that I would never get a job if I pursued that line of study, I would not ever get tenure... which just raised my curiosity even more; tell me I can't do something and watch me go!

It was interesting, because no one really thought that the topic was relevant. Somehow, I did land an academic job, but the thing I was always curious about was how Black women maneuvered in a very white professional world. And I think that was based on my experience. As I said, I'm from the South Bronx, my parents weren't highly educated, I'm a first generation academic, and in this elite white world (my first academic job was at Yale School of Organization and Management), here I am in these elite academic institutions, and just feeling like a fish lost at sea.

Do I belong here? What are my roots? Should I be working more within an African-American community? Not knowing any of the social skills, not knowing any of the rituals that occur in these institutions, it made me curious about, well, if I'm feeling this, how on earth are African-American women feeling this in the corporate sector? How do they wind up there, number one?

My parents were very happy with me being an elementary school teacher, which is how I started my career, so that's what got me along this track. All the work at that time, and Stella will agree with this, all the work on women in management in those days (and I'm dating myself) was about white women and their experiences. There was nothing about Black women.

And that just made me more determined to understand what were their stories and did they feel like I felt, a fish out of water? You know, what kind of support were they getting, how do you make this transition? So that's what got me motivated and has kept me on a research track my entire academic career.

Rachel Salaman: Stella, would you like to pick up on that, and perhaps also add how much in your experience can we generalize about people's experiences when it comes to race and gender?

Stella M. Nkomo: OK. What I would add to that, Rachel, is just fundamentally understanding that everyone has a race and gender, no one has a single identity, and I think that's important for people to understand. So when the whole issue of whether or not women were suitable for management and leadership, the big scholarly conversations were about gender.

And so "gender" began to equal "white women," because the only people who were being studied were white women, so their race was totally invisible.

So what happens is that... and it's not to say that every woman at that intersection has the same experience, but there are structural experiences that you have because of that. You know, even in the book, if you read the book, you see that each woman's story is unique, but there's overarching themes that apply to the barriers that they found.

So yes, we're not trying to say every single woman has exactly the same experience, but we know what the barriers are in our book, for African-American women, because we studied it. So there are similarities and some of the themes converge, and some of those themes continue to be a barrier.

Just using my own experience in South Africa: yes, South Africa's a very different context, but, you know, when I've studied women there, there's just similarities in how people stereotype, how people think about the competence level of Black women, even in a country where the constitution is based on gender equality.

So, you know, maybe the race goes in the background and then the patriarchy becomes quite strong, and it seems to be hard for people to keep these two things in mind, you know. So even for white women who reduce themselves only to women, they're missing the part of their whiteness, and their whiteness also impacts how they see the world and how they experience it.

Rachel Salaman: Well if we could just take a moment to describe the format of your book, because it's one of the most compelling things about it. And perhaps mention the scope of the study on which it's based. Ella, would you like to talk about that?

Ella Bell Smith: The thing that was very interesting when, our first take, we interviewed 120 women, a larger sample of African-American women because there were so few of their stories collected. We had a mixed-race research team, with graduate students interviewing the white women so that people would be comfortable. We wanted the women to be comfortable in sharing their stories and not feel that they were being evaluated or judged. It took us a good eight years to collect all the data, number one.

Number two, when we wrote up the report, we were in a one-book contract and we wrote up a good research report, there was nothing compelling about it in terms of our readership. So we went through one-book contract, and then Harvard, thank god, picked us up, and they put us with a wonderful woman, her name is Constance Hale, she's an unbelievable editor.

She took the stories and we sat down, she looked at the stories and then she said, "OK." And she came up with a wonderful schematic for the book, one that talked about their early life, their life journeys, the second part, navigating the corporate world, and the third part, their relationship with each other, the white and Black women's relationship with each other.

The stories were so rich, they spoke for themselves. It took us a little time to do the analysis, because we wanted to make sure that we were thorough, we wanted to approach it with rigor, so that no one could question. And we also had a questionnaire. So we were trying to cover all of our research bases. But still we were told that the work was too close to our heart, still we were told that, you know, how could we tell these stories with some distance.

So we still had to fight it through, if you will, being African-American women scholars doing work on African-American women and white women. Which is interesting, because when white men do research their samples are often white men and they're not told that they're wearing their research on their heart. So when you add race in it, it sent up signals to many of our white colleagues that somehow our work wasn't rigorous enough, while those same questions weren't being applied to them.

And I think the reason for that was that we were talking about race, I think if we were talking any other subject, we would have been OK. The rigor might have been questioned, I don't doubt that, but I think we were really challenged because of the fact we were Black women and we were focused, focusing on race and racism (and there's a difference between the two). So one, we tried to capture those stories about how women learned about race, as well as their racial and sexist experiences that they had gone through, experienced.

Rachel Salaman: Well it definitely does capture those personal stories and makes it almost read like fiction, in a sense, but the great thing being that it's not. When you first wrote the book, and in preparing the new edition, Stella, maybe I can put this to you: did you see it as being primarily educative for white people, empowering for Black people, both, or something else?

Stella M. Nkomo: OK, the book was for both groups, but I think the impact was probably greater for Black and Brown women, based on the interviews. Even doing the interviews many of the Black women said to us, "No one has ever asked me what it's like to be a Black woman in a white-male-dominated organization."

So they felt gratitude and affirmed that someone was asking about their stories. And in fact, many of them told us subsequently that, "Some of the things that you've written in the book that I've never been able to share with my white colleagues or my boss, the book captures that." So some of them actually bought copies of the book to give to some of their white colleagues.

I think we were hoping, Rachel, that it would be instructive and it would be a motivator for the leadership in organizations to really understand their role in trying to recognize the challenges that all women face, but particularly the unique challenges that Black women and Brown women face in corporate America. So we were hoping it would start conversations among the leadership, to say, "Wait, wait a minute, we need to do more? We weren't aware of this but we're going to do something about it."

And we also hoped that it would start conversations between all women, particularly between Black and white women, to understand the commonalities in their experiences but also the differences. And maybe for more collective and more solidarity in addressing issues of racial and gender equality.

So we had a big agenda, we were hoping for a lot.

Rachel Salaman: Yes, and that was 20 years ago, so I have to ask, as far as you can tell, how much have you succeeded in what you set out to do?

Stella M. Nkomo: I think we still have a long way to go. You know, I would say my work would be disappointed in two ways.

We don't think the kind of conversations that needed to take place have taken place. We don't think that there's been... we can give you numbers if you look specifically at the progress of African-American and other women of color, even globally, that has not moved, the needle hasn't moved dramatically.

I think right now, if I remember, I think we cited it in the book, if you look at some of these global surveys of the percentage of women globally in management and leadership, the needle seems to be stuck in about the 20 percent range. I think the high now is about 29 percent, so there's still this kind of stuckness.

And the second thing is that, if you look specifically in the U.S., where the study was done (we cited this number the other day so that's why I remember it) I think at the time the book was released African-American women in the top executive positions was about 1 percent. Well, flash forward, 20 year later, 2021, the latest figures indicate they're at 1.4 percent. At that rate, we're not going to get very far.

Rachel Salaman: How do you account for the lack of change, why haven't things moved on better? Ella?

Ella Bell Smith: I think there is an overall... there's several factors. The first factor is companies get really excited, respond to what's happening in the external community. So where there are events that deal with race, racism in the community and it sparks change externally, they respond to that.

They do a lot of monies, they have a lot of monies put aside to do work occasionally, depending what the issues are. They check the box and they go on, you know, "We've done that work, why do we have to continue to do the work?" They don't understand that its ongoing.

You could get a company, it's actually amazing to watch, you can have a company that is fast forward and doing amazing things. Get a new CEO, it's not on the top of the CEO's agenda, and they're not board members that hold people accountable in this area. So as a result it slips through the cracks again.

The other part of it is that the Black women are not being trained, African-American women, Black and Brown women, and Asian women, are not being developed.

One of the interesting things to observe, Tuck and other elite business schools have these unbelievable executive programs that cost an arm and a leg to get into, and it's a grooming program, if you will, takes you to the next level. Top thought leaders teach in these programs. You can go into a program at any elite business school and look around, and the classroom will be mostly filled with white men. There'll be a few white women. If you're lucky, there'll be one or two Black or Brown men. One woman of color, one Asian woman, and if there's a Black woman, there's usually not a Latina woman. OK?!

So these women are not being groomed, they're not being developed for high-profile, revenue-generating jobs. That's important. Black women could be in the system but they're not in the pipeline for senior executive positions.

There's been a whole flurry of Black women, Brown women, getting jobs now in D&I, Diversity and Inclusion. That's fantastic, but the reality of it is, that's not generating revenue. And the way you get to the jobs, you climb the ladder, if you will, is how much money you're bringing to the table, and that becomes very, very important.

And Black women are not (even though they come from top-tier, might have a graduate degree from Harvard, Dartmouth, you name it), they're still not getting into those positions the way they should be or the way their white, female counterparts are getting. Even though it's still a drib and drab for white women, OK? So if white women aren't where they need to be, you know the women of color definitely are not.

I mean, when you look at the whole thing: sponsorship, who's sponsoring them? How are they being groomed; how are they being positioned?

And the other thing is, and Stella can talk to this a little bit too, Black women have to prove themselves three times more, like it or not. You can have all the bells and whistles, you can even have the experience, and they will still tell you, white management will still tell you, "You're not ready." Even white women will say, "You haven't done enough yet, you haven't proven yourself." So there is a constant, constant need to prove yourself three times better than any of your colleagues, than any of your counterparts.

So the frustration then sets in, and I've seen where Black women get so frustrated that they give up, you know, they're just tired, they're worn out, because the change in all the work is on them. It's not looking at the company and what the company needs to do.

No, if you go through all these hurdles that I'm putting you through, without support, without recognition, "well we might eventually get around to it..." How would you feel having to work like that, in that kind of culture, in that kind of context? You get tired.

The way that white women, the way that Black women advance in a company is by going to "jumping companies," we call them. They wind up going to another company.

Stella M. Nkomo: You know, in terms of... just to give maybe a little global angle on this... You see, the model of leadership, you know, the idea of the ideal leader, the prototypical leader, that is not only gendered, it's also racialized. So when people think of leadership, they think of a hyper-masculine white guy, most of the time, who single-handedly leads his company.

So one of the barriers for all women is just being able to go against that stereotype, so when people think of a leader or they think of promotion they don't necessarily first of all think of a woman, and, as Ella said, they rarely think of a Black woman or a woman with brown skin.

So that is an issue, because once you get into a company, somebody has to say, "Look, I see the talent, I see what this person could do," and there's good research on that. This is why the World Economic Forum has said, you know... gender equality? They're looking at another 208 years!

Ella Bell Smith: Yeah.

Stella M. Nkomo: Nobody even gives a forecast for racial equality, and there is no forecast I've seen for race and gender equality in the world. So these are very deep barriers, and frankly, if we don't deal with racism there can never be gender equality in the world, because some women will always be left behind.

Ella Bell Smith: Yes.

Rachel Salaman: Well, you talk about dealing with racism: what are some ways, other than the suggestions that we've heard from Ella just then. Stella, would you like to continue on that?

Stella M. Nkomo: Well, you know, there are specific strategies we could give for companies, but I think the biggest barrier is we've got to get rid of this idea that some races are superior to others.

As long as this belief... and it's white supremacy... and people think white supremacy equals this white guy with a short haircut and he's all tattooed. Ha, no. White supremacy is even more subtle than that. The idea that there's a hierarchy of races... And if you look at the patterns of who's in the top, it fits that pattern: white men at the top, now white women are doing better – like in the U.S., if you look at the U.K. you see that same kind of profile.

So ideally, I don't know how we do it, we have to get rid of this idea that one race is better than others, because it will be very difficult to see the talent in someone who doesn't fit that white prototype.

You know, that's what we heard constantly from the women: the affirmation that you are competent, affirmation that you could run a business, affirmation that you can lead effectively.

But specifically, if we want to change the numbers of Black and Brown women in organizations, it has to become part of the strategic agenda. You must target it and you must say, "We're going to do it!" It must become a priority.

If it's something we'll get to only when we're forced, "we'll work on it," that's not going to sustain it. So who's going to step up and say, "You know what, we're going to change the face of this company, we're going to change the face of leadership, and we're going to hold everybody, all managers, all leaders, accountable."?

I'd like to see the day where some (ha!) brave, courageous leader says, "You know what, I don't care that you're making the bottom-line numbers, I see you're losing women, you're losing Black talent, we don't have a place for you in this company." You see, when you make it a priority, and I don't think it's a priority for many companies, I don't think it's at the list where they have market share or are being more competitive.

Ella Bell Smith: Just to add to that, is that I think companies feel that they're there, and many times companies wind up doing the external. If you take what happened last summer, when we had a rough racial summer... Rightfully so, companies were very concerned, and donations were made to historically Black colleges, to Black Lives Matter, you name it.

The question and the challenge is, what are you doing internally? It's not checking the box externally, "This is how much money we gave," number one. It's actually doing, as Stella suggested, the work internally.

The second thing is, you've got white supremacy, but the way that I think the way white supremacy works in the workplace, is to be a systematic racism, which is distinct racism which is in the structures. You know, these structures and cultures develop, entitle and privilege, quite frankly, white men and white people.

And until we really unravel culture that says one group is better than another group, or competent looks like... You know, I'm so tired of competence looking like a white male! You describe, "What does competence look like in your company?" Let's just ask that question, it's a great question to ask, "What does competence look like? What does success look like in this company?"

No matter who you ask, the description always equates to a white male, it's really scary! So until they start unpacking "what competence looks like here, how are people promoted, what is getting in their way, how are we developing people, where are we recruiting people, what positions are we grooming people for, our pipeline is multicultural..." until those are rituals: "what do we stand for, how do we think about workforce balance, how do we...?"...

You know, it's another amazing thing, the women at the bottom... we don't talk enough about the women at the bottom of the company that are doing all the scrubby work, right? All the work nobody wants to do. These centers, telephone centers and all of that. We've got to think about all women, not just the professional women.

I know when I'm in groups of white women, professional white women, they often want to only talk about, "OK, we're the senior women." You know, they don't want to take risk on looking anywhere else, even when it comes to other white women, you know.

"Well, we've got our own problems and we're just going to hunker down with us, and if it changes for us it'll change for all the women." How many times have we heard that, Stella? And the reality of it is, no, it's going to change for you, a little bit, but it's not going to change for all women throughout that company.

We have got to understand how the system works, to keep women trapped in low-earning positions, number one, and how it impacts those women for not being able to enter the pipeline. You know, Stella always says, "Look at the talent that you have." Well if I'm in the bottom of the company how do I get my fingers wrapped around that first rung?

What are you offering me so that I can finish college, what are you offering me so that I have a mentor, what are you offering me in terms of sponsorship, what are you offering me in terms of internship? Nobody is asking those kinds of questions in great levels, great numbers, and until you unravel systemic racism and sexism and classism for all women, then guess what, we're going to be right where we are.

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Rachel Salaman: I just want to pick up on something from your book. You said that you found that Black women managers often want to be viewed first and foremost as competent professionals whose race isn't an issue, but at the same time, interestingly, they don't want their colleagues to ignore their racial identity. Now that kind of apparent contradiction often makes people feel like they're treading on eggshells, so perhaps could you just talk us through that a little bit? Ella?

Ella Bell Smith: I think the reality of it is, and I think there's generational patterns here, the women that we interviewed, they were of a different generation than the women who are out there now.

I believe now that there might be some shifting in terms of younger African-American, younger generations if you will. They're not as uptight about... not uptight, but not as concerned about seeing race. It's all part of their identity, "see me," but they're not leading with their race because they've lived a different life.

Coming along, Stella and I, our generation... (And I'm 72; I'm not going to tell you Stella's age, that's not my right to do!) But the reality of it is, I know when I experienced racism as a child, I know when the door was shut in my face or I was considered stupid, or I've felt I did not belong. And it wasn't because of my gender, because there were white women doing it to me as well, OK?

So for me, when you ask me, I'm an African-American woman, I'm proud to be African, you know, African-American, that's my identity. I think if I were to ask my goddaughter, who's 26, I think she would say, "I'm a woman." She would get to the race part, but I'm not sure she's leading. And it's interesting because there are generational changes in terms of how we learn about race, what are the historical markers for us in learning about race, how did our parents teach us about race?

We always think... and we lump race and racism together, they're not.

Whites learn about race, white men, white women, often learn about race the same way, OK. So why should white women have a different perspective than white men?

Because how we learned about race was how our mothers and fathers talked. What kind of responses, where did we live, who did we play in the sandbox with, who were we told to stay away from and don't play with? Who were we told to fear when you walk down the street?

Alright, they learned about race the same way, we learned about race the same way as African-Americans, and that's culture, that's not racism. If we can unravel the ways that we've learned about racism, who taught us and what was the history that shaped that experience... ?

My godchildren have learned about race a totally different way, totally different way. They didn't have Martin Luther King, they didn't have the march on Selma, they didn't have the march on Washington, they didn't have those historical markers, OK.

What's amazing is to see, and I think Stella would agree with me, to see the response around the world of young people to the death of George Floyd. That was a major marker for them.

It'll be interesting to see how they identify themselves, and the fact that you had young white folks in there, and older white people too, but the young white people that would say, "Enough is enough!" That's new, and that happened in Great Britain, that happened in France, that happened in Spain, that happened all over the world! So how they are responding is different.

And it's just like, wow! For that, it's a terrible thing to say, there is some joy in my old bones to see how they're responding, because I think they're going to demand a different reality.

Rachel Salaman: It does look that way, but if we think about the workplace today, and when it comes to working with a diverse group of colleagues, is it better, do you think, to aspire to color blindness, or observe and talk about cultural differences? And if it's the latter, how can you avoid an impression of racism? Stella, would you like to answer that?

Stella M. Nkomo: That's a good question, Rachel. I think that you cannot do color blindness. Color blindness in fact could be a denial of my issues that I may be facing, and this is the same for everyone, so you do have to talk about it.

I kind of pick up the question from the point of view of a dominant group member who feels uncomfortable, worried about making a mistake. I think the key is to be authentic, and authenticity.

So, for example, the murder of George Floyd, that was a big issue, was on television. Now, if you're working with Black colleagues or Brown colleagues and you go into the workplace and you feel that, "I need to keep quiet about that," then I would think, "What's the matter with these people? We're all watching this thing on the news!"

In fact, there were some companies, I don't know if they were all over the world, but there were some companies that actually said, "Employees shouldn't talk about George Floyd murder in the workplace." So we talk about this in the book, the courage to have authentic, courageous conversations.

Frankly, I think I would rather a person, a white colleague, to make a mistake: at least they would show interest in what's happening to me.

So part of it is creating a culture, the leadership creating a culture where people can have those authentic conversations and be willing to take the risk of making a mistake, but being open to the feedback, being open to it, you know.

Probably Ella would now talk about co-conspirators...

I mean, I need to know that you see the racial injustice and that you're willing to speak up against it. This is so critical, because often what can happen, Rachel, frankly what is happening is many white women are getting a seat at the table of power before Black women. I need to know that if I'm not there, you will raise the issue. Hopefully you will speak both of gender inequalities and racial inequalities.

Ella Bell Smith: You know, it's interesting because of the fact, and Stella used the word co-conspirators, having allies is not enough. I think we should know, after decades of talking about, "Well, you need allies." No, you need co-conspirators, people who are willing to put skin in the game, people who don't have a choice to opt out, you know.

Sometimes it gets too hot, there are consequences in terms of rewards, there's consequences in terms of losing your American Express card. I often say that, for many white people, they have their little American Express card and the price of membership is privilege. When I become a co-conspirator, I'm giving up that privilege, I'm speaking out, like what Stella said, in social justice, but I'm also standing by your side. And until we both win, nobody wins, and that's problematic.

The good news that I have, I am seeing more white women who are willing to be co-conspirators. When we wrote this book, I would be hard-pressed to be able to say that I've seen white women who are willing to stand and fall with you, if you will. I'm now seeing white women who are doing just that.

"Our Separate Ways" would not have been re-released without Julie Castro Abrams and her wonderful network of unbelievable women leaders, mostly white, on the West Coast, who said, "No, this book needs to come out." It was like, "What can we do, Ella?" At first, I didn't know how to act, I was dumbfounded, but I am seeing white women, particularly younger white women, say, "Oh no, I'm standing with you."

You know, I have a diverse group of women friends, my posse. You know, I've got white women in my posse, "Hey, we're going to go down with you no matter what," and not just a professional level. I think we also have to recognize that if you're a co-conspirator you really have an authentic relationship with the person across the racial line.

My husband recently passed away from leukemia, and, like I said, I teach at Dartmouth, which is in New Hampshire. I'm living in North Carolina [about 800 miles away].

And my white women colleagues, they drove down, they came down, they cooked, they cleaned. They took me, you know, "We're taking Clay to the hospital, you go and get your nails done. Now shut up and get out of here." The love was unbelievable!

[Clay was Ella's now late husband, Clarence A. Smith, to whom the book is dedicated, alongside Stella's granddaughter, Nia Siphiwe Nkomo.]

So when you cross the racial line and you really have authentic relationships, the reward is just staggering in terms of making change, in terms of making a difference. And that is so critically important because, as Stella said, we're not going to advance as women until all women advance.

Rachel Salaman: In your book, though, you explore the tensions that sometimes arise between Black and white women at work. Has that changed in the last 20 years? How would you describe it then and now?

Ella Bell Smith: You know, there's good and there's bad, and we get beat up for using this. White men are very good at using white women, they know white women really well, their wives, their mothers, their daughters. So what we're seeing, white women are becoming unfortunately the new gatekeepers in terms of the advancement of Blacks.

You know, a white woman, as I said before, doesn't know any more about race than a white male, but when you see in terms of positions or promotions, I always marvel how white women love to water it down. You talk about diversity, inclusion, "Well let's talk about all the different kinds of diversity, let's talk about learning styles, let's talk about all of this, let's talk about that," you know, "Oh, let's talk about gay and lesbian rights." "OK, you can move the needle on that, let's talk about race." "Ahh." No energy, no enthusiasm, no nothing. That's still happening, very much so.

I often see in my consulting work, unfortunately, that a white woman can derail a Black woman very quickly. And nobody calls the white woman on it because they feel like there's this gender bond between the women.

You know, people don't like it when I say it but I'm going to say it again, white women don't necessarily support other white women, but they have a hard, hard time supporting women of color. Because they don't know them, they don't understand them, and we compete in the workplace. That's that hyper-masculine competition, they see a Black woman they see a twofer, "Oh, it's race and gender, she can beat me," and boy, it triggers them, it really does trigger them.

I'm glad we talk about this in the book, because nobody likes... people get very uncomfortable. This is not a comfortable book for white women. White women get real angry when they read this book, because nobody wants to talk about this in terms of the relationship and the responsibility that white women have.

Rachel Salaman: Stella, would you like to add to that? Perhaps you can pick up on that idea of responsibility, what responsibility do white women have?

Stella M. Nkomo: Yes, and I think that responsibility is increasing for them, because if you see, like in the U.S., everybody's celebrating, (I don't think they celebrate in the U.K. because it hasn't changed that much,) but there are 41 women who are heading Fortune 500 companies, all-time record high. There's only two African-American women and three other women of color. So it seems like the door has opened slightly, it's not anything to brag about, it's still a white-male-dominated Fortune 500 list.

So I think white women now should begin to think about, "What does that mean in terms of my responsibilities, in terms of racial and social justice?" and that responsibility is to be a voice, as I said earlier, Rachel, for change.

If you get that level of power and that seat at the table, what are you going to do about these issues? Will you do it differently, will you raise the questions that are uncomfortable questions, will you think about elevating or supporting the status of other women who may not look like you, who may not have the same sexual identity as you? Are you able to do that, to be a voice versus assuming?

You see, sometimes I feel like inclusion is basically including just to be a replacement, but if you're simply just going to fill that seat and not do anything differently, well... I think that's problematic. I think too that, as Ella said, we have to understand, and you mentioned this earlier, how companies operate.

It's a pyramid, so there's only a few positions at the top, and so they can look like they're achieving equality by choosing more women who look like them, which might be white women or whatever country you're in, and so it gives the appearance of progress. So if I'm a white woman I have to understand that dynamic, you know, I need to fight for more openings, more slots, more opportunities, and not say, "Oh well, I made it to the top."

So there is... I don't want to call it a burden, but there is a responsibility that comes with getting that kind of power in corporate America. I just hope that women don't squander it and just assimilate, you know, the danger is assimilation, that you accept the company as it is and you just lead and don't really do anything differently. I think the verdict is still out on that, but, as Ella said, it's a difficult conversation.

One of the things I was thinking the other night, Ella, was that maybe the way to get the conversation started is if a company could bring women together and just read the book, like we're doing now, and talk about it. You know, what makes you uncomfortable, how do I talk? I don't know how to talk to a Black colleague.

I don't know if people can have those kinds of courageous conversations, and somehow, I think they have to be had, it's like the elephant in the room.

Rachel Salaman: You've talked about the responsibility of white women, do you think that Black women and men have a responsibility to forgive a certain amount of naivety perhaps on the part of their white colleagues who are trying to understand. Ella?

Ella Bell Smith: I'm going to take it a different way. I'm not sure if corporations are prepared. We've done that in affinity groups. I call it the Kumbaya moment. White people have a right to be curious, Black people have a right to be curious too. The question is, what can you teach me?

Unfortunately I think African-American, both men and women, are just tired of teaching, worn out. The responsibility of, "I've got to teach you about race," when there are plenty of books, there are plenty of films, there are plenty of information, and for you to explore what your whiteness means, which is very hard for white people to do. But I always flip it, like, "Well, why don't you take some time to think about how you learned about race and what did you learn and how does it impact you as a leader?"

But the good news on the horizon is that there are several organizations that are actually really great places for building the relationship between the women.

You look at Makers, Dyllan McGee, she's no longer... she was the founder of Makers, she's no longer their president, but the legacy that she has left... She turned that organization around so that Black women, white women, Asian women, Hispanic women. I mean, she threw us in a, she made a vinaigrette that was just unbelievable, with all of us, and now Makers actually has a Black Makers, with Black women and white women pushing women of color into leadership positions.

Tina Opie in Boston has Shared Sisterhood: I think she's got over 2,000 women who are tackling this in their day-to-day lives. You can't segment just what's happening at work, we live in a segregated reality, so I can make Kumbaya at work with you, but then, when I go home, I go back into my little segregated reality on both sides.

We've got to find, we've got to as a society, find pockets of healing and places where you can do the work and feel safe, and want to do it. You know, at work you have to do it, so I come in with this grudge, like, "I don't really want to do this, and oh god, here we go again," which is why the work isn't really going deep enough and not lasting.

Finally, you can't build a relationship if you don't change the structures. You know, "Why am I... you're getting to know me, I'm getting to know you, but we still work in a system that is targeted for you and not for me? So here I am, spending all this energy trying to build this relationship, but we work in a company that has systemic racism and sexism, so I'm still not going to advance but we're great buds?!"

We have got to do the cultural, we still work in a culture that is going to entitle you over me. It's time to really tackle and get past Kumbaya, and "boy, I know you and you're my... " Mm-mm.

Show me a company that is redefining its culture, that is becoming anti-racist. Show me a culture that's dismantling systemic racism. Show me a culture that is holding everybody accountable.

Accountability is a big word right now. I'm not going to try to do Kumbaya if you're not being accountable. It's time for white people to be accountable.

Stella M. Nkomo: And I just wanted to say, Rachel, just to add to that, you said Black people should be more forgiving. I would frankly say generally Black people have been already quite forgiving.

Rachel Salaman: Sorry, I apologize for not being clear, I didn't mean forgiving, I just meant I think one of the problems here is that white people feel that they're going to say the wrong thing, it's that simple.

Stella M. Nkomo: OK.

Ella Bell Smith: And that's true, yes.

Stella M. Nkomo: And I understand that, I understand what you meant.

So I think part of it is, yes, we have to meet half way. I would say, on the one hand, do some self-work, you know, like a lot of this information is out now, this wonderful book.

So people are much more open, if a person said, for example, "I watched the movie, '12 Years a Slave,' and I really didn't understand this part." I can see that you've actually done something, [not] expecting me to do the whole, entire education for you. But I think, yes, you have to take a risk, and yes, but I think as Ella said, we don't want to be responsible for the total education of our white colleagues, we would like to see some self-work. Come to me when you've done some self-work, versus expecting me to do all of the work for you. That part almost...

You see, I'll tell you what irritates me, and I think it irritates most Black people, it's again that premise, "I have no idea of what your experience is." You know, it comes across the wrong way if you come totally, "I don't know anything." You can't approach a person of another group like that, it won't work for any type of identity, especially in a world where information is plentiful.

Rachel Salaman: Towards the end of your book you say that the real inclusion of Black women in corporate America requires a radical change, and we have touched on some of what that change might look like. Just briefly, could you each share your vision of that change and, importantly, share some advice, if you wouldn't mind, of how all of us can help make it happen? Ella, would you like to start?

Ella Bell Smith: First of all, this is an uncomfortable conversation for everybody. So we've got to get used to being uncomfortable, which is connected to your last point. Nobody's going to be comfortable, and nobody has all the answers.

As I say, there's generational differences, my generation has a whole different way of understanding race than younger. So in my classrooms I teach younger MBA students, and how they see race is not how I see race. So listening becomes very important and learning from each other, and knowing that everybody's going to have a different reality.

I do like the word "accountability," because I think white people have to be accountable, organizations have to be accountable.

You've got to be willing to dismantle – and what do I mean by "dismantle"? I mean you've got to do an ongoing, regular plan and strategy on where are the pockets, if you will, that derail African-American women, where are they, and who's responsible for those pockets? How are they being held accountable, how are they being taught, how are they being developed, number one?

What's our culture do, what does competence look like in our culture? I love that question, what does competence look like, and dismantling the white masculine, if you will, model of competency.

I think everybody has to understand and recognize the importance of knowing who you are, and Stella talked a little bit about this, but I think one of the core realities of good leadership is knowing who you are, and knowing who you are also includes your racial identity. You know, who are you and how did you learn about race, and how does it impact you, what's the effect that it has on your leadership?

That becomes a critical question, and before you can have a conversation with me, you need to do that work, OK, that's the work you need to do. And corporate executives need to start that conversation and take it all the way down. Stella will talk about boards because she's got a great idea on that, but reality, how are you developing your people, and all of your people?

I will be very happy when I walk into an Executive Ed classroom and see Brown and Black women. I was like, "Whoa, where'd you come from?" OK, and corporations are sending them, not just to the minority women programs for leadership but to the big boy programs. I want to see them in big boy programs, OK?

And I want to see women, when I ask you about your pipeline in your corporation, it's multicultural and you've got Brown, Black women slated for senior executive, revenue-generating positions. You know exactly who they are and you're sponsoring them, and it's not, "Well, we haven't gotten there yet." You're being accountable, you're being accountable in the numbers.

Let me just add one really quick thing. I'm doing work with a company right now and they did wage analysis, which is really great, it's a great company. One of the things that the consultant who was doing the analysis, he broke it down in terms of wage for white women, white men. Came time to do African-Americans, and the African-Americans were almost like, "Well wait, wait, wait. Whoa, why didn't you break down the analysis for the Black women and the Black men?" "Well, the numbers are too small and I'd have to change the whole way I do it, and I can go back and do that but it calls for a whole different statistical methodology." Bingo, problem number one. "No, you've got to break that down, you've got to know that, and if you're not doing that, you're not doing your job. OK, that's part of your job, we need to know those numbers, OK."

So how they're getting access to information, what they're doing with that information, how they're processing, and what's the strategy to get us to the next place and how is our culture getting in our way?

Rachel Salaman: Stella?

Stella M. Nkomo: I think Ella's said it all, but the only thing, again, strategy, strategic. I have a concern about diversity and inclusion, you know, it used to just be diversity management, now people added "inclusion," but inclusion means the people coming in who are different, whether they're Black, white, gay, lesbian, another gender, they are expected to assimilate into pre-existing structures.

So leaders need to think about... I was thinking of the word "diversity and transformation," transforming the structures and the barriers and really looking at, as Ella said, doing a diagnosis. What's wrong with the way that we do things around here that only certain people rise to the top? And they need to be willing to change those structures.

See, most companies want to hold onto those structures and assume that the people must just fit in, so this is what we mean by radical. Radical breaks the current structure, you break the frame and you've created a frame that can include everyone, no matter who they are.

Maybe the key principle is the talent that they bring, but companies seem to think, "Basically, the way we do things, we have the best business practices, we have the best business structures," and they've got to let go of that. Because clearly those structures are keeping certain people out who don't fit the prototypes, and I think that's going to be very hard for people to let go of.

Rachel Salaman: Stella, Ella, thank you so much for joining us today.

Stella M. Nkomo: Thank you.

Ella Bell Smith: You're welcome.

Rachel Salaman: That was Ella Bell Smith and Stella M. Nkomo. The name of their book again is, "Our Separate Ways: Black and White Women and the Struggle for Professional Identity."

I'll be back in a few weeks with another Expert Interview. Until then, goodbye.