Now You're Talking! Performance Conversations

Transcript

Rachel Salaman: Hello, I'm Rachel Salaman. Today we're getting a masterclass on how to manage one-on-one conversations at work, including some of the most difficult ones.

Our guide is Anna Wildman, former Global Director of Learning at KPMG, and a Royal Navy Veteran. Anna is the founder and Director of Oil in the Engine, a performance management skills company. She's worked with thousands of leaders across the globe, and she's recently channeled all that expertise into a new book, titled, "Now You're Talking!: The Manager's Complete Handbook to Leading Great Conversations at Work – Even the Tough Ones."

Anna joins me on the line from the south coast of England. Hello, Anna.

Anna Wildman: Hello, Rachel, thank you for inviting me to join you.

Rachel Salaman: Well thanks so much for joining us. So, you called your book a "Complete Handbook" for "Leading Great Conversations at Work," as I mentioned. How did your past experience inform the content of your book?

Anna Wildman: Yes, it's definitely an ambitious title, isn't it? I mean, it's taken from 30 years, as you say, of working in both public and private companies, and working with managers directly in both training and as a line manager myself, to decide where the challenges are in terms of holding performance conversations. And I remember my first ones... I'm thinking, they were extremely formal and rather strange at first, and didn't necessarily need to be. So, all of those experiences have gone into, hopefully, what will provide everyone listening with some basics for every conversation that they need to hold.

Rachel Salaman: Now you used the term "performance conversation" there, and you use it in your book. I wonder if you could zero in on what exactly that means and how it differs from other workplace conversations?

Anna Wildman: Yes. A performance conversation covers things like goals, development planning, feedback, compensation, and many more.

But I've been trying to think, listening to your question, about what other sorts of conversations may not be covered by the term "performance conversation," because almost every time you talk with a manager it influences how engaged you feel about your work. Maybe there's a few that are sort of purely social, but even those probably affect how you feel, so maybe it's everything!

Rachel Salaman: Now, near the start of your book, you say that there are three main dynamics of a performance conversation: the process, the message, and the words. Could you talk about those three categories and their relative importance?

Anna Wildman: Yes. The process is anything to do with the performance management system, things like when you're supposed to hold the discussions, whether you can allocate your team's specific year-end ratings, or maybe need to follow a set distribution, areas like that. Whereas the message is... and by the message, I mean the content of each conversation that you actually hold with a person, one of your direct reports. And then the third element is the words you use to get that message across.

And it's important to have a look at all three elements, because one of the manager's biggest worries is that the process can get in the way, if they feel that there are parts of it that they don't like or their people don't like, they can worry about that.

The good news around this is that there's some super research by Gallup that says the process doesn't really matter as much as managers might think. Their research shows that if the manager is good, 70 percent of people see the system as good. Conversely, if the manager is below average, 85 percent of people see the system as poor. So, how the manager handles the conversations is by far and away the most important part and something within the manager's control. [1]

Rachel Salaman: And you're talking here about the words that they use?

Anna Wildman: I am, yes.

Rachel Salaman: So, if the words are the most important, should we be writing scripts for each performance conversation?

Anna Wildman: [Laughs] It could definitely seem like that, can't it, to stop us falling into pitfalls, and there seem to be many of them these days, which is really difficult. So, it's stressful, for sure.

The challenge is that using scripts distances us, as if to say, "This isn't me talking to you as I might normally do day-to-day, it's the process telling you this." And it's not necessary to have that glass wall between you and your people if you have the skills to be able to give messages in a way that's authentic and caring, or lots of other skills.

Rachel Salaman: Yes, but nevertheless, I guess some managers will be very nervous about whether they're using the right words, so that in itself could put up some kind of wall or reduce the authenticity of the conversation.

Anna Wildman: It does. So, I've tried to include in the book over 300 examples of the sorts of words that work.

This is not to provide managers with a script but it's to give them an idea of how to position a point, particularly those tough conversations, so that they can then adapt it to their own words and their own style. And it gives them lots of clues about how to put the points across without, as you say, going into those pitfalls.

Rachel Salaman: Well, what are some general pointers, then, for the kinds of words we should be using? Or maybe sometimes it's more about the tone of voice or the tone of the words that we should be going for?

Anna Wildman: Yes. So, both of those are so important, you're quite right. Our words need to be authentic to us and to our staff, they need to be respectful.

But you're quite right to pick out the tone, it needs to be... the best way I can describe it is to be "on the level" with the person that you're talking to, so that you're not talking down, and you're encouraging them to look at you as an equal in solving the problem of the conversation; whether that's a great area of performance or whether that's an area of performance they're struggling with.

Rachel Salaman: Absolutely. Now your book covers all sorts of conversations, but I thought we could focus on just a few in this podcast, starting with Giving Feedback . How has feedback changed in recent years for both the giver and the receiver of feedback?

Anna Wildman: So, if I took the giver first, actually probably on both sides, there's a lot of different changes around so many jobs being automated, and if there is such a thing as an average employee, their work is much more technical, more demanding. So, you've got smart people doing unique roles, and so the process of feedback needs to be much more two-way, it's much more collaborative. The receiver can contribute almost as many ideas as the giver – presumably the giver has more experience, but not always.

And there's a second big influence, in that social media has shortened what we expect from feedback, the dynamic is that, "I need it right now," that "I would appreciate lots of 'likes' for what's going well, as well as ideas about where to grow and change." So, these affect both sides.

Probably the last one that most affects the giver is that they need to be able to receive feedback and that's always difficult, but it is important: it's much more two-way.

Rachel Salaman: So, looking at positive feedback to start with, you say that this involves more than just saying, "Great work!" Why is a pat on the back not enough?

Anna Wildman: [It's] Really important to say that "Great work!" is a fantastic thing to say, and I certainly don't mean to ask people to go into more formal feedback conversations when that is a super morale boost for people, but there are times when a longer conversation is really valuable.

There's a saying around this that I think helps to illustrate the point, which is, once you've nailed it, (i.e. you've got important performance sorted,) once you've nailed it, then scale it. And "scaling it" means helping people to understand both the meaning and the significance of what they do well, so that they understand the impact it's having on both the unit and the organization as a whole. They not only do more, it helps them to see how their performance integrates into the organization more effectively and where best to build their skills.

Yes, it can be also a really great way of helping people to see where to start directing their career, if they understand which capabilities are their real strengths.

Rachel Salaman: And now we're getting into the "nitty-gritty" [essential, practical details] of the dynamics of these performance conversations, and you have a model that helps with a lot of these called, CEDAR, C-E-D-A-R. Can you tell us a bit about that model, what it looks like?

Anna Wildman: Definitely. So, the easiest way to remember it is, I guess, a mighty tree growing from a small seed, as it were.

But it was based on my experience that "dos and don'ts" (lists of dos and don'ts) in feedback programs are great but they're not enough. When you're sitting in front of someone, you really need a pathway through: where do I start, where do I need to go next, and so on.

These five steps significantly reduce the anxiety and the stress of that conversation, especially if it's about a tough topic. I've crafted it to make sure that it's a two-way model, that both sides get involved in discussing each of the points. Yes, so it seems to give managers confidence and also competence.

Rachel Salaman: So, CEDAR is an acronym. What do those letters stand for?

Anna Wildman: So, the C is Context. Start with, of course, explaining what it is you want to talk about, but it's [also] understanding the significance of that, you know. How big is it?

We've all been familiar with the story of Chicken Little, where I think it's an acorn or something falls on its head and it runs round saying, "the sky is falling in!" And managers don't want to be doing that if it's not necessary.

Equally, if they want to talk about something that is hugely significant for the team or the individual, they need to make that clear, too.

So, the Context is, what is it, how big is it, what's the impact, and involving the individual already on their perspective about that so that they contribute right from the start.

The E is the next step, and that's Examples, and that's because the experience I've had in training programs, and in real life watching these conversations take place, is that it's easy to say... let me give you an example, "You need to improve your team working skills," or, "You need to improve your report writing." Without examples and illustrations, it's hard for people to know exactly what you mean, so Examples.

The third step is Diagnosis. This is probably the single most important step of all and it's definitely one where the manager stops talking, and says to the individual, their direct report, "What do you think is behind this?" to create insight about what the cause might be; whether that's elsewhere, outside the person, or something that the person is doing.

The next step is the A, that is Action: where next, what do we do about this, do we do anything, do you want to do anything? If you do, what will that be?

And the R is Review, because you need to follow up. Without following up, the conversation just gets filed, as it were. So those are the five steps.

Rachel Salaman: Excellent. So briefly, how would you apply CEDAR in an imaginary positive feedback session, step-by-step, if we can think of a scenario?

Anna Wildman: For sure. So positive feedback is a really nice thing to be able to take people through. So, let's say someone who's an exceptionally good performer on their team, they're contributing to their colleagues, they're helping them and so on, so if we take that example as a positive one...

You might open the Context by explaining right away that you want to talk about something the individual is doing well. And if you say, "I'd like to talk to you about feedback," people always, probably through experience, dread the worst. So please put people out of their misery and start with, "I just want to say and talk through how well you've been doing on your team working." And explain the significance, "So that's a really important contribution, it helps the others to succeed in their work by doing..." whatever it is. And maybe add in a few Examples there, but also say, "What do you think about that, how do you use this from your point of view?"

People are often a little nervous at this stage because they think that you're saying something positive because you want to follow it up with a "but," so you will need to keep going. Just say, "We'll move on to the D steps," so they've been listening and smiling and nodding and looking pleased, but not saying very much, just waiting. So, the D, this is the hardest bit to say, "How did you do it, what capabilities did you use, who did you talk to, what strengths do you have?" and get them thinking about the behaviors that they use, the competencies they use, and what they do that helps that to be a successful area for them.

Then, with Actions, it's not always possible to say, "Where can you use these skills further," but ask the question, because often people will come up with ideas. An example I had a couple of weeks ago was someone who was saying, you know, around this area actually, "What could you do?" and they said, "Well, I think I could support my colleagues in passing on some information by doing a little more coaching with them on this particular area, or being able to support an individual with an area that they're struggling with." So, ask, "Where could you do this more and how can we leverage this ability you've got?"

Last step, if it's a positive one, is to follow up, to say, "Well," keep it simple, no need to be too formal about this, just say something like, "Let's check back in in a week or two and see how this is going and see what's been possible to do, and if there's any support that you need from me in setting this up, let's discuss that." [That is, Review.]

So, it's relatively straightforward, it's not as formal as it might sound if you've got the words "model" next to the steps, but it gives you a pathway to follow, and each one is important. And ideally each one is two-way – you involve the direct report in each of the steps.

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Rachel Salaman: So, if we turn to negative feedback now, which in your book you call "developmental feedback"... as we've hinted at, it's more difficult to give. I found it a bit of a relief to read in your book that sometimes, when we think we need to give negative feedback, it may not actually be the best option.

Anna Wildman: Yes.

Rachel Salaman: So, what are some of the instances when this kind of feedback is not appropriate?

Anna Wildman: Yes. It's called developmental not to dodge the issue – it is about areas that people need to improve, but "developmental" because it's an area that they can grow.

So, the first "do and don't" always of this conversation is: always make sure that it's about the behavior, not the personality. And that's the first time you might not need to have the discussion, because if there's been a mismatch with their personality and they're not going to be able to change it, then the feedback isn't appropriate in that case, you need to try and find a better fit. You could also switch the task to someone else more suited to it if that's a possibility and you've got more than one person on your team.

But the single biggest instance in which you don't need to give a formal developmental feedback conversation is if you could just coach the individual. Just sit down and say, "This is an important part of your job," whatever "this" is. Let's go back to teamwork as the example, so, "'Working collaboratively with others' is another part of your job, let's go through some of the skills you need to be able to take this to the next level." In nine out of 10 cases, when I talk with managers, it is possible to coach, go straight into coaching, instead of giving a developmental feedback conversation.

Rachel Salaman: Excellent. Now the CEDAR model can be used in developmental feedback sessions as well as for positive feedback, as we've mentioned. Can we talk through how that might work in another imaginary example, this time of developmental feedback?

Anna Wildman: Yes. So, let's say, for example, one of the tricky ones is, maybe they don't take feedback well, because this can be a sort of double challenge in your conversation. So, if they are given feedback by their colleagues or other stakeholders and yourself, if they push back against that, then the context of that is opening with something like...

Instead of saying, "You always push back whenever anybody talks to you," instead of which, frame it from their perspective, which is something like, "I understand feedback can sometimes be hard to hear." You might even say, "I never find it easy, either!" because many of us struggle with it.

So, the context is around, "It's invaluable for us to be able to hear feedback because it helps us to keep developing our performance," on the part of continuous development. Then involve them from their perspective, to say, "What do you think about that, what is it that you're finding is tough to take?" And they may come up with all sorts of issues, or they may say, true to form, "I don't see a problem."

In which case, and I'm taking the toughest example here, say, "Well, let's look at a couple of examples. Just yesterday you seemed to shut down when we were discussing how to build your skills. Was that how it felt for you, because that's how it came across, but it may not be what you really meant it to look like?" And that sort of straightforward but clear example (and maybe you would add another one but that's a nice, recent one) starts to get people talking, and they'll say, "Well, yesterday I was like that because of this."

Moving to Diagnosis, "What's behind how you feel about feedback, what's a good way of resolving this issue and talking through each of those steps?" So, diagnose what's behind it from their perspective and what actions they might take.

Hopefully they come up with some actions, but firm it up by going to the Review step and just say, "So, when shall we follow up? Again, is there any support you need from me, but when shall we follow up?" Ask what they suggest is a good follow up time and meet again.

Rachel Salaman: And in this part of the book, you suggest that managers ask for feedback from their team – you've mentioned that earlier as well. What's the best way for a manager to elicit honest, useful feedback from team members?

Anna Wildman: This is a tough one, because everybody's thinking, when a manager asks you to feed back, asks you for feedback, the balloon above their head is, "I wonder if they really want it."

Two things will encourage people: if you are genuine, and you need to show that you're genuine.

Don't launch straight into, "What can I do differently, or what am I not doing?" Start with, "What am I doing that's helping you do your best work and I should keep on doing?" (That's not just to sweeten the conversation, that's actually for you to learn what's working well about what you're doing.)

And then ask, "What can I do differently or more of?" That's an example of where the words really matter. It's not, "What am I doing that's not working?" but, "What can I do differently or more of?" and people will usually respond very well to that.

Rachel Salaman: Excellent. Now another potentially awkward conversation is the compensation conversation, what are your key tips for managers planning one of those?

Anna Wildman: The biggest tip is to hold conversations not just at year end or cycle end, but throughout the year.

Begin at the beginning of the year by making the process as transparent as you are allowed by your organization. And of course that varies, but explain why your organization pays the way it does, explain the approach it takes in terms of whether they give particular bonuses, how those bonuses can be influenced, any particularly pressures that the organization is under at the moment... And then people are clear about what's happening and it manages their expectations.

Now, you might think, "Well let's not start on a downer too much in a tough economic environment," but if that's the case for your organization, people will trust you more if you're realistic with them throughout. So, start at the beginning, make it clear, then follow up in progress updates, "How is your progress doing?"

So quarterly seems to be where many organizations are falling, to just have a quick catch-up with performance update for the last three months. "How is your performance comparing to what's expected?" Not in-depth, because of course their performances changes, but give them an idea and encourage them to make that comparison with where they are.

Most people understand that they're not at the top of the tree and a tiny percentage are absolutely outstanding, but encourage them to do that benchmarking, wherever it is they are, and how they can influence that.

Include in your conversation non-tangible rewards: by that I mean things that are not to do with financial gain but they are to do with intrinsic motivators, things like rewards to do with having more autonomy, development opportunities.

I had a superb boss when I was working for Cathay Pacific Airways after I left the Navy, and he would give us so many development opportunities. Of course, we were lucky because we could travel places on the "company bus" to see programs, but he would allow us to go and do that. And that was worth such a lot to me in that role, it was a huge part of my overall compensation.

Rachel Salaman: Well, through all the conversations we've discussed, and the many more in your book, a successful outcome depends on the manager caring enough to lead the conversation well, but not caring so much that they get frustrated or stressed when they come up against apathy or maybe continued poor performance. Do you have any tips for finding and maintaining that balance?

Anna Wildman: Yes, it's such an important skill. I'm not sure I'm a great master at doing this, but certainly, looking at what works for people...

The first suggestion I would have is to make sure that you set up the relationship so that the person has responsibility for their performance – guided by you, but you are not responsible for it. It's them responsible for their output, and that's a really important part of setting up well.

The second one would be (one of the biggest issues is that people are not performing to the standard expected)... it's to set and update goals regularly, so that you're refreshing what's expected. Because that makes any conversation about under-performance, "How are you doing against the goals?" not "How you are doing against my expectations as your manager?"

It's not "me versus you," it's "you versus your role expectations," and it is important to recognize when an issue tips over and we start to get stressed and [it] crosses our boundaries.

One of the best quotes I've come across this is from Brené Brown, that you may know of, the researcher, she says, "When we fail to set boundaries and hold people accountable, we feel used and mistreated," and we can all relate to that. And she says, "This is why we sometimes attack who they are, which is far more hurtful than addressing a behavior or a choice."

So, we have to keep in mind, going back to these issues, that it's really important to let people know when they're not performing.

I was with an organization once and a member of one of their teams had not been told for 13 years that he was under-performing in a particular area because no one had addressed it, and that did him no favors. So, I think we have to remember that.

Rachel Salaman: Wow, yes, that is worth remembering. Well, we've covered a lot of ground in this conversation, what are your one or two top takeaways for managers wanting to make the most of their workplace conversations?

Anna Wildman: Going back to the first one that I covered earlier, treat those conversations as a partnership: this is not you owning your people's performance. I know in the end you're accountable for your unit and your team and your group, but when you're talking with them, treat that as a partnership, get people taking accountability in the way that I've described, kindly but clearly.

And take care of yourself too, build your own support network, talk with other managers. We all share many of the same issues.

The last one probably is, try not to place demands on yourself that you will be able to use these skills right away. We all learn as we go, and I always learn something from every workshop that I ever do with managers or every example I ever try and demonstrate. So, we're constantly building our skills.

And I put in the book a lovely quote from the world-famous cellist, Pablo Casals, who was still practicing six hours a day at the age of 80, which is phenomenal. And he was asked why. He said, "Because I think I'm making progress." I would say, just keep making progress.

Rachel Salaman: Anna Wildman, thanks very much for joining us today.

Anna Wildman: And thank you.

Rachel Salaman: The name of Anna's book again is, "Now You're Talking!: The Manager's Complete Handbook to Leading Great Conversations at Work – Even the Tough Ones," and there's a wealth of information and resources at her website, oilintheengine.com.

I'll be back in a few weeks with another Expert Interview. Until then, goodbye.